Game Play Questions.

Bobzurunkl

Member
Before I invest anymore time to building on the various on going projects I would like some clarification on game play. As this is the first server I have played on I am probably unaware of the usual course of play so please bare with me.

1. Is this a building server or a conflict server or both?

2. Can other players damage or destroy the creations within towny boundaries of other towns than their own?

3. Are declarations of war just idle banter or do they have repercussions within game play?

4. If this is a conflict server, what are the rules of engagement. Wars quite often get quickly out of hand.

5. Are trolling, rudeness, bullying and just generally being a dick to be frowned upon or just considered to be standard game play and ignored.

I have been a gamer for forty five years, since the days of Diplomacy so I can understand that side of the fun, but to be honest I am here for the community, the creativity and to learn from my betters. I would prefer not to engage in conflict but it does not worry me other than the time I would have wasted trying to build something for this server. My LAN world grows lonely.
 

Kapten_Knas

lol ɹoʇɐɹʇsıuıɯpɐ
Staff member
1. Not sure what you're referring to with "conflict server", we try to keep ourselves out of conflicts. ;)
In general people build, we have a no-griefing policy that we actively enforce.

2. No, unless explicitly given permission.

3. Towny wars have not been used, ever. While it does seem like a fun concept I'm not sure how practical it would be putting use to it, with our current setup.

4. As stated above, wars hasn't been used. There are alternative means of PvP that might be interesting in the future but I do not see Towns as a tool for it.

5. Heavily frowned upon, if an issue with a player appears this should be reported for further actions.
We have and will always have full logs of chat activity.
 
I agree towny wars seem like a neat concept but it would have issues with the setup we have now of towns. Arenas are the only place where actual battling should be taking place and there is actually a specific plot type in towny for it I believe. I will be making one soonish hopefully. Maybe after I finish my rail tunnel...
 

Bobzurunkl

Member
I am a history/poli sci geek. It's what I studied in my non arts university studies. If I had not gone into the military and then used my arts education I would have been a history prof. I filter all my game play through this body of knowledge when playing games that have elements of strategic nation state issues. I enjoy that aspect of gaming and can separate myself into the player character versus gamer. I stay that way until it becomes personal, then I get annoyed, as it is now. I was going to write a long polemic on Empires, land claims and how history has shown what happens when these claims come up against the original inhabitants of these lands. In reference I would point you towards the Roman empire and the American move westward. There has always been push back when one nation state makes declarations of sovereignty over land that they do not occupy. This is history. I was looking forward to the diplomatic dance that could have ensued from the fine posting made by Atlas concerning their plans, thus our response on the thread. I would point out that Twinnie had already indicated that as gamers we loved what was being done in the mountains but as PC's we would have to act in a different way as residents of another town that was being encroached upon. I would point out as well that there had been an agreement on the border and we were more than willing to not claim land in that direction. Back to gaming and history, I ask you what happens in real world politics when a treaty is ignored and there are movements that can be translated as hostile. Lift your heads from the screen and look around, there are plenty of these kind of issues in the real world right now with the diplomatic and military responses happening as I write. Gaming is a supposed safe laboratory to explore these themes and have teachable moments. This cannot happen if one party cannot separate game play from personal feelings, then there are just hard feelings as there are now.

I was not going to bother perusing this matter after the initial skirmish but the response has made this necessary. To listen to Atlas afterwards crowing like the winner was just too much to take. I would point out that we thwarted the expansion by boots on the ground and would have stopped the expansion northward in it's tracks with our claims that were made through the game mechanics of Towney. Game, set and match. It was only because Atlas cried like a baby out of game that we rescinded our claims and lost our gold. We are not here to upset people. Twinnie even gave him a stack of gold as a birthday present. Nice thank you eh? To be treated as griefers is not something I will stay around for. We and I personally have provided gold for new players to establish themselves, we have provided materials at no charge for the great projects that others are doing, we have equipped and fed people new to the server, in short we were here to play, build, and be helpful. We have never advertised these gifts as to not embarrass the recipients. I realize that I am unapproachable to many of you, whether it is your daddy issues or my poor chat skills doesn't really matter but I have always tried to be helpful to other players and protective of the server.

I would also point out that we have always stayed within our borders for building as we have understood that these are the rules. If we wanted land or to build something new we would ante up our gold and purchase the land. I had thought the rules on this matter were pretty straight forward, but looking at the map I can see nothing but construction in Elysium on unclaimed, unpaid for land. Are the rules only for some then or maybe we misunderstand the rules.

We have enjoyed playing on this server (my first I might add) for the most part, we game to relax and clear our heads from the tasks we are involved in. When it is no longer enjoyable or relaxing then it is time to move on and unfortunately this is the point we are at now. We took a break before both because we have lots to do but also to let the drama dissipate. It seems that this may be a recurring issue. I am sorry to say (I am sure some won't be sorry) that the Amberton clan will probably not be around much any more. Best of luck.
 

GamerMom

Active Member
It is possible that our style of play is simply not appropriate for the server, or maybe for servers in general, for all I know.

This and other recent clashes make me quite sad and disappointed. I am sorry I brought my family and the server together at this point, because it seems to have created hard feelings, misunderstandings and conflict, rather than shared joy, which was my intention.

Best wishes to all.

Colleen (Twinnie)
 

General_Bacon343

Moderator
Staff member
I am deeply saddened by your decision to leave, but I understand why you have chosen to do so. We offered a mature server and we failed you in that regard. I wish you best of luck in the future.
 

Tim122911

Moderator
Staff member
Politics and role-play aside, I, and most of the players of Anembra, dearly hope your family does not leave merely due to an unsolved conflict. While it is fun at times to play with and prod at each others temperaments, at the end of the day we all come here to simply relax, have fun, and enjoy each others company. If it is a problem of borders or right to land, the purpose of the rules and staff at large is to solve such issues. Simply make a formal complaint with the details of the problem here and we will see that it is solved in a manner that is most fair to everyone. The Amberton Clan is always welcome at Anembra, and I assure you Twinnie there are no hard feelings, you have only brought joy to most everyone on the server. :)

Love you guys
-Tim
 

Kapten_Knas

lol ɹoʇɐɹʇsıuıɯpɐ
Staff member
I'm terribly sorry to see the Amberton Clan leaving, especially during such circumstances.
I have not been aware of the situation that you've been in and I would've gladly helped out in any way I could.

Almost everyone tend to come back and I hope you'll be one of them aswell, if you're one of the few that aren't I wish you the best of luck both in Minecraft and IRL - it's been nothing but a pleasure.
 

GamerMom

Active Member
Thank you Tim, Bacon, Atlas and Knas for your responses; they are appreciated.

First I want to say that I do not believe that any player entered into our recent evening of gameplay with any intention of causing conflict.

To clarify, this is not a dispute over a land claim; this is about game play and whether our style fits in with the other players on the server. Amberton had already stated that it would not be expanding its main town any further due to our close proximity to other towns. We claimed 4 outposts in distant areas so that all town members would have ample space for building projects without encroaching on other towns or players.

So our fellow players may be wondering why we presented objections to Elysium’s ‘manifest claim’. There are two simple reasons; rules and treaties.

Now I am the first to admit that I am unclear on the mechanics and rules of land claims. The reason I founded a town right away was that I couldn’t make sense of how wilderness claims worked (please remember that this is my first server) and so founding a town gave me a safe place to build. You may recall some of my noob questions when I was unsure whether I could even pick a flower or cut a tree outside of my town borders. This is indicative of the disorientation and confusion a noob experiences when entering the server. I realize most players here are much more experienced.

Several months along and I am STILL unclear on land claim procedures outside of towny parameters. There have been numerous players who have joined, cleared land and built, and only made their land claims much later. Which makes me think I have interpreted the rules much too literally.

So, in the absence of clear guidelines or at least clear understanding of such, we must rely on our communications with other players to establish ground rules for our mutual play. Thus, we discussed the issue of our borders in chat and on the forums. Knas, you may recall I apologized for building so close to main and explained that it was a decision based on lack of perspective. Then, in the same conversation, we discussed the mountain range between our towns, Atlas. Our recollection of that conversation is that we all agreed that neither of our towns would place claim on the mountain range; that it would be a buffer between us and a neutral territory.

Then along came nations, which kicked everything up a notch. When we came back after a break, we learned that nations were forming and were issued invitations to join other nations. After a bit of thought, I decided to form our own. This was both a player and character decision. Amberton’s mayor would have actually preferred to remain a city-state. Our mandate is to be a neutral tourist and shopping town who welcomes all visitors. We felt our close position to main demanded neutrality; to join any other nation would give them an ally right next to spawn, which has strategic implications, and would also possibly change the nature of our town. Consequently, I formed a nation as a diplomatic move, because I felt it was better to refuse all other offers of nation membership equally rather than choose one over another. Amberton wanted to be on equal footing with ALL her neighbors.

Now that we were a nation, we felt obliged to play as a nation, and this meant to us that we had to respond to Elysium’s statements about their ‘right’ to claim the mountains. This was totally an in-game move; I want to make it perfectly clear that at no time were we trying to personally attack Atlas or any other player. Eventually, this led to the confrontation witnessed by some players here the other night. I’m sure everyone has a different interpretation of what went down, but here are some of my observations:
 

GamerMom

Active Member
We responded in the forum to Elysium’s claims. This is all part of lore and nation-building in our gaming experience. We are old D&D’ers, so our early game-play was all paper-based and we are quite accustomed to generating diplomatic missives, maps, nation newspapers, etc. This design element to gaming can add a lot of interest and we thought there might be potential there to really expand our gaming possibilities with other players. Obviously, it did not go as intended.

Now Atlas, we have been ribbing you for awhile about your unclaimed land, and I think fairly. You are an experienced player and an excellent builder and as fellow players, I think we have a right to give you a hard time about your apparent reticence to get your hands dirty mining. This was all meant to be good-natured. Elysium’s land claim statements made us feel we wanted to make the point a bit more loudly. I actually had no intention of claiming any land in the mountains but only to make the point that you were blatantly breaking our treaty. Banter ensued. Then things got out of hand. There were loud and aggressive statements made about Elysium’s ‘rights’. I responded IN-GAME by claiming a few plots. I intended to follow this with a statement to Elysium that I was DEMONSTRATING the proper and legal way to claim land, and that I would be relinquishing the land, but events progressed so quickly that I did not have this opportunity.

I have already admitted that we are unaccustomed to the fast pace of online play. We are paper geeks from a bygone era. Now perhaps everything just happened too fast or perhaps the whole thing should have been discussed more in the forum before it appeared in-play but within minutes, communication between players stated to break down and misunderstandings began to pile up. It became very difficult to know who was talking in character and who was talking as a player. Some players made a strong effort to indicate that their comments were their character talking and we appreciated that. We tried to maintain the in-character discussion but things were escalating.

Other players became involved in the conversation and seemed genuinely upset and/or confrontational. Atlas confronted me in the mountains and brandished his sword at me, although I thank him for using restraint and not attacking. Bobz came to my location to provide protection as I was being threatened. This left him vulnerable to attack and, in fact, he was shot by 3 arrows and knocked off a cliff by danny. Now that was kinda upsetting, because this point about pvp has been brought up before both in chat and forum and we felt that everyone was in agreement that duelling should be by mutual consent in appropriate locations.

Meanwhile, Atlas started claiming plots to ‘defend’ against us, since we still had not been able to make the point that this was a diplomatic demonstration. Atlas, I even pm’d you at least twice telling you I was acting in-game, would unclaim the land and that we were not trying to interfere with your build, but I accept that you may not have seen them in all the action or perhaps did not believe me.

Anyhow, by this point there didn’t seem to be any hope of reviving the proper spirit of the exchange and we could only hope to end the conflict which was occurring and get the hell outta there. I unclaimed the land, as I had always intended, and gifted Atlas with a stack of gold. I had planned to give you some gold all along, Atlas. I was going to suggest that you use it to legally and properly claim the land that did NOT violate our treaty agreement, as per my demonstration of land-claim procedures.

There are probably a lot of other nitpicky details that could be included but really, I just want to present to our fellow-players our perspective on these events. Because regardless of our future participation or lack thereof, gaming is important to everyone here, else why would this conversation be taking place? It’s important for any game that the players understand each other, have clear communications and understand the shared guidelines of the game environment. If you witnessed or participated in the events I am discussing here, and thought we were being total assholes, I would invite you to use this opportunity to consider how differently a situation can appear from another perspective, and why good communication is so vitally important. As I said at the beginning of this increasingly-long rant, I do not believe that ANYONE signed on to the server last week intending to cause harm.

This brings me to: Rules of Engagement.

IRL, there are detailed and specific rules of engagement adhered to by nations. This is largely to prevent misunderstandings and over-reactions. This topic is what started this thread, in fact, because we wanted to be sure that we were not misunderstanding the rules-of-engagement of our fellow players. I would suggest that this issue is still unclear and is contributing to this kind of misunderstanding. IRL, historically speaking, when nations have made claims to unoccupied land, other nations push back and frequently place their own claims or defend said land.

For the benefit of all players, I would love to see more clearly defined rules and terms-of-engagement. I know it is a lot of work to write up that sort of thing and that it must evolve somewhat naturally as problems arise. Perhaps this is a chance to address, in the rules, some of the points which contributed to these events.

On a side note, I also want to mention the issues of spawn point and town/nation memberships, very briefly. My opinion; town spawn should not be in ANY individual players town. I could make an argument for having it in Amberton, but I really think it should be a neutral place. Atlas, you claim that it would not give you an advantage with new players to have the spawn in Elysium but I must respectfully disagree. To a new player (inexperienced on servers), it is implied that the place you appear in the game is a safe haven and many will set up there simply because they do not know what other options are available. You also claim that you are picky and do not solicit new members to join your town but I have personally witnessed you doing so; I am sorry to have to contradict you but that is my truthful observation. Even if that were not the case, there is still an implied pressure to join you if the spawn is in Elysium, in my opinion.

As far as town/nation memberships, I want to address the role of admins and mods. I am not familiar with how this issue is handled on servers in general, so I apologize if my understanding of this issue is incomplete. However, it seems to me that membership in player towns/nations puts mods in a conflict of interest. I haven’t really pondered the point long enough to break down all the details of my thoughts on it, but I am wondering if anyone else sees this as a problem, or what the mods think about it? I am not questioning anyone’s ability to play more than one role, but mods are already required to play both as mods and players; membership in a player state adds a third dimension. Something to consider.

We have learned a TON of stuff from the time we have spent on the server, and have had some excellent play sessions and many laughs. For that, I thank all of our fellow players. At this point, I do not know if and when we will return. We are in danger of appearing to be “rules cops” and making our fellow players uncomfortable atm. As far as formal complaints, I thank you for the suggestion, Tim, but I don’t want to have to police my fellow players. If I can’t play without having to report people, then I don’t want to play with those people. I want fellow players who are mature enough to monitor their own actions, with or without the presence of mods/admins.

Regardless of future events, we wish all of our fellow players the very best in your gaming and also in your real-life endeavors. As I say, we have learned a lot and had some really fun sessions with you, which we will always appreciate.

Best Regards,

Colleen (Twinnie)
 

Fayettemat

Mr Geek
Staff member
Twinnie, I can understand most of your points you've made but a few do bother me so I'm going to lay out my thoughts and let you respond to them as you're able:

1) What would be the point in being on this server as a mod if you only do moderation? We are mostly a self-moderated group and for that I'm appreciative and have a lot of respect in general for others. However I think that if we were to force the mods to leave their towns and not play as a player as well that would either A) leave or B) stop being on much or C) not want to be a mod and step down.

I've been an admin on other servers and frankly it's pure boring to just do admin work and you find yourself on the server less and less the longer you've been an admin and are not able to play as a player anymore so I have experience in where I'm coming from. On that server admins, if they wanted to play at all had to have an alt, which I do as a result, but I found myself spending less time there due to the other admin and staff's (and player's that were close friends with a senior staff member even!) inappropriate actions towards me and @doomkitten in general. All of the staff on the server, other than myself, were teens and male and as a result they made many inappropriate and some times sexist and racist comments to players and other staff! I personally don't care what you do behind closed doors but staff shouldn't be acting that way and more so treating the players that way.

2) I'm unsure if you understand that my opinion on Atlas' land claims was personal or otherwise so I will say this as such: I do not agree that role playing is a major thing in gaming. Sure there are tons out there that do it and more, however, defining the actions in game as "in character" and "personal/professional" isn't a very good idea in my opinion mostly for the fact that unless you're acting in a movie your "character" is almost always based 95% on what you personally think and do. As a result of this I don't role play or do anything of the sort. If I give you my opinion or thoughts on something or state something and I'm being serious it's either my professional or personal opinion (depending on my role and the setting). Since I'm not staff on the server my opinion on here is 95% of the time a personal one and the few times there's an exception is when I'm talking about things that I'm doing professionally and have a valid professional opinion on.
 
Last edited:

Bobzurunkl

Member
I realize that I was not addressed in your post Fayettemat but as Twinnie and I have been together over twenty five years and been gamers together that long I will jump into this conversation. As stated above we are old D&D types, paper and dice, later miniatures added for table top stuff. I had run the same campaign as a game master for about fifteen years and yes being the admin or DM is a tedious process involving lots of work generating the story and backgrounds and settings. One does not get to be a player at all as all non player characters have a rigid script that they must follow in their reaction to events.The heart of the game in those circumstances is the fantasy role playing. Some players can do it better than others. Our experience of on line gaming with others is nil and I can see how it would be hard to translate the type of game play we are used to over into an environment as this.

The addition of nation states to this server presents a situation where if it is not a character driven with the various diplomatic/military type actions between the states it then turns into merely one or two gamers trying to dominate the server for their own purposes whatever they may be, in effect hijacking the work of others especially the server owners. The separation of player and character gives a safely valve to discuss these events without personal animus. In all my years of being a gamemaster, both in personal gaming and as the games manager for a gaming store I have never been unable to resolve a situation using these mechanics of reason or game character actions. It keeps the personalities out of it. Once again I accept that our inexperience of servers could well have created a misconception of the type of play that goes on, our bad. But to be honest I would rather think that a fellow players character is reprehensible rather than the player himself. As Twinnie stated we don't game with people that we don't like or can't trust to keep there word. Gaming can be a very personal experience and as time passes relationships grow and friendships are formed which are no less important than any other in ones life, on line or off. I would state here for the record that there are very few folk here that I don't like and those that I have found offensive I have put down to our age difference, style of play or once again our lack of experience with on line gaming communities.

The only times I have spoken up in an authoritarian manner have been when chat has gotten out of hand with either personal sexual politics, personal attacks, or just plain crudeness and rudeness for not other effect than shock. I would also say that I defend my family ruthlessly and without compassion, threats or rudeness directed towards Twinnie will always get a response from me whether on line or off, so for that I make no apology.

So in summation to your second point I must respectfully disagree on character play. I do accept however that the style of game play now may be far different than it used to be and we are behind the times. I would love to regale you with tales of players who knowingly marched their characters to their deaths because what they knew as players was unknown to their characters. Some of the funniest gaming sessions we ever had were because of circumstances such as this. Good times.

On your statements regarding mods I see clearly the points that you make and agree with them but I cannot but wonder how a mod can do his job if he is a member of a city or nation that requires them to take actions against another player with whom they are aligned. The conflict is pretty clear. I have no answers on that one and hope that you may help explain a strategy for dealing with that from your experience.

We both appreciate your thoughtful response and the exploration of these issues. If nothing else this situation has made for some interesting discussion on gaming theory.

On a personal note, I have been dropping in to give stuff to folk who could use it or are looking for things. I would far rather give my resources away like that than wait for our vault to be empty and have the vultures descend. If we come back I will just mine new stuff. Whether we will be back or not i cannot say. Twinnie has been very upset about this which of course makes me less than happy. So as you can see the community matters to us otherwise we would just move on.

Thank you again Fayette for your thoughtful, considered response.

Terry (Bobz)
 

Bobzurunkl

Member
Just to clarify, I have not witnessed or heard of any issues with mods on this server of that nature. They all deport themselves honorably. This is merely an abstract gaming issue that I see could be difficult.
 

Xzarida

New Member
In my opinion if a mod cannot act without bias simply because they are in a town they shouldn't be mods. I don't think any of our mods would have an issue with that.

I fully agree with this, I know Tim would kick or banned me for doing something wrong, and has kicked me on multiple occasions for stepping over my bounds, (thankfully never banning). I also, feel like Elysium has over stepped their bounds multiple times, and this is just another action of their manifest. The members of my town, talk to me about their issues with Elysium on multiple occasions, in fact one of my members has not come on since a heated conversation atlas had with yven.
 

Fayettemat

Mr Geek
Staff member
Bob, I appreciate and can sympathize with your points, especially those about the character driven moves. I don't , personally, know anyone who plays that way and isn't influenced by their own personal thoughts. Then again I know few people who actively role play so that could be a large part of that.

As for the issue about being loyal to their own town/nation: the same could be said about their friends and I don't think anyone should be a mod or above if they cannot put their personal ties aside if its really needed. Sure, I can see letting some small things go as a mod if you know the person, however, you are not worthy of being a mod if you can not take action where its needed regardless of personal feelings. I've actually seen, on other servers, people lose mod status due to not being able to preform cause their friend was cheating.
 

Bobzurunkl

Member
So I have been trying to think what it is that makes this a different/harder platform to FRP from. The thought that came to me is that there are no attributes generated for the character you play. It is a generic Steve that you get to visually change with skins, but that is all. Anything that the character becomes is totally dependent on the player. In most FRP systems it is the attributes of the character that drive the type of play. It provides a framework for the player to hang the character on to get outside themselves. How strong are they, are they dexterous. Are they intelligent or wise, do they have persuasive powers over others. Are they lucky. These randomly generated numbers give the player a base line to guide them in their actions and provides a game master with the tool to be able to say, for instance, "nah you couldn't do that you would trip over your own feet" (low dexterity). In the absence of that it becomes dependent on the player to set these perimeters internally if this is their mode of game play. This is what Twinnie and I do. Amberton was set up as a "trading" town with little expectation of doing much trade. Mostly for the fun of building and making parody signs and shops, thus our walmart and mcdonalds parodies and semi spamming chat with bad ads when someone was looking for stuff, this is the type of role playing we were enjoying on the server realizing the limitations of the platform. The nation issue is a tough one if it is done without the role playing as then it is just claims being made outside the rule structures of both the server and towney. What is to stop me from producing a map that lays claim to all unclaimed land and telling my fellow players to respect these claims as these are our right as the true Alpha players of the server, it makes for a rather weak argument no matter how loud you yell it. So in a nut shell I have no answer on this one either. But as you can tell I do love game theory and love to pick it apart. Thanks for the intelligent conversation.
 

Fayettemat

Mr Geek
Staff member
You're welcome, and I should note, if you want stuff to be claimed as for you only you should put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

As for the nations: we joined one with people we are friendly with as you can give allies special permissions and the like to do things and don't have to give it to the entire world when you do so. Since I trust pretty much everyone in my nation I could easily set it to "allow allies to build" and not really worry about it. This is one of the reasons why I think nations are a good thing - out side of a role play environment. They have downsides too, I'll admit, however, I think the positives we've had so far from being in one out weigh the possible negative issues.
 
Top